Vigano and Pope Francis

Discussion in 'General discussion' started by andree, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. andree

    andree Well-Known Member

    This morning, as I read the words of Pope Francis, "I will not say a word on this" about the letter of the Nuncio, the image of Jesus in front of Ponce Pilate immediately sprang to my mind. Pope Francis is remaining silent just as Jesus did when before the person who had the power to judge Him.

    I think that we are close to the crucifixion of the mystical Body by the people who hold the power in Rome and I note with so much sadness that Catholics are yelling for his resignation. Do they not see the parallels with the time that Christ was crucified?

    But pope Francis urges us all to read the letter carefully, so I am posting the link to the text below. I am thinking of reading it in front of the blessed Sacrament this morning, asking the Holy Spirit to shine the light on things.

    Prayers going us for our pope, priests and Church.

    link to full text:

  2. David

    David Well-Known Member

    First of all, andree, please let me explain that I have changed your link to Archbishop Vigano's letter from the Lifesitenews link you had originally posted. The Lifesitenews website is so outrageously critical of the Holy Father that I don't think the site should be used or advertised for any reason.

    This development of the publication of an extreme, accusatory, document against Pope Francis and others by a significant member of the hierarchy certainly marks a big step forward in the purification of the Church. It remains to be seen what long term impact the letter will have but I am pleased with the Holy Father's initial response which effectively says the letter speaks for itself. Although he is not responding to any of Vigano's specific accusations, he has not ruled out doing so in the future.

    The letter (or dossier) certainly provides plenty of food for the anti-Francis community on the internet (mainly traditionalists) but we cannot know how widely the letter will come to be accepted as truthful or accurate in the future. I have found a website with an appropriately skeptical view of the letter. One article in particular can be viewed at:

  3. andree

    andree Well-Known Member

    Thank you David. Actually I think that link I provided was in Robert Moynihan's letter, which surprised me at first, but I figured if he provided it then it must be accurate in reproducing the content.

    I look forward to reading your insights if you have any. I said I would read this text, but didn't and actually have a hard time diving into these matters. I have little time to read and prefer not spending it on wading through disputes and accusations and figuring out who is lying.

    But I have been reflecting on Judas this morning and the fact that withouth Jesus' active interventions, the apostles would never have accepted him. Jesus protected Judas for years from judment from the apostles and was very firm in ordering St John to not let anyone in the room where Jesus was alone with Judas after John caught him in the act of stealing (from the Poem of the Man God). He knew about the lies, the sneaking around, drinking, occult practices, sleeping around too and stealing and never said anything except with His Mother. It made me wonder what both popes may have exchanged on this subject.

    I am not saying that protecting sexual abuse is right obviously, but the timing on this along with everything else going on has me on radar alert.

    Getting back to the pope's response, I came across this passage just now in TLIG today which is related.

    From August 30th 1991: I Am; silence is the best weapon after prayer; - I will trample on My enemy soon;
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  4. David

    David Well-Known Member

    I don't believe that Pope Francis has ever hidden abuse and he would not do so. His 'problem', from a worldly point of view, is that he believes in innocence until guilt is shown.

    I have no doubt that he heard from Vigano and others that McCarrick was guilty of abuse but he refused to believe such rumours (or gossip) without specific evidence. This is what happened with the Chile situation. He believed totally in what the Chile bishops told him until clear evidence came forward to show that he was being misinformed. Then he acted decisively.

    The problem in this internet age is that instant virtual 'kangaroo' courts are set up that 'decide' someone is guilty of something without any sound evidence at all. Pope Francis made these points in his interview on the plane back from Ireland. I copy it below:

    But additionally, here is a response to the Vigano accusations by the same 'Rome reports' video service:

  5. Radhe

    Radhe Well-Known Member

    The "msm" as they are irreverently referred to these days, are virulently anti christian , aggressively secular, corporate.
    They are increasingly irrelevant and yes the internet too unfortunately amplifies human nature all to well. People are quick to believe evil. The timing of Vigano accusation is typically cynical, they the politicians,the media - who are all natural born liars think they have eliminated the faith in Ireland
    RTE accused wrongly a priest of abuse. Their bigotry is legendary....I refuse to pay for their solipsist drivel - no license and no tv.

    From August 30th 1991: I Am; silence is the best weapon after prayer; - I will trample on My enemy soon;

    Yes andree ! I hope he does....!
    The "Accuser" is running rampant at the moment.
  6. David

    David Well-Known Member

    And here is an important quote from a message to Mirjana in Medjugorje on September 2, 2013:

    For the sake of Jesus, for the sake of my Son, love those whom He has called and long for the blessing only from the hands which He has consecrated. Do not permit evil to come to reign. Anew I repeat – only alongside your shepherds will my heart triumph. Do not permit evil to separate you from your shepherds. Thank you.”

  7. David

    David Well-Known Member

    And now evidence has emerged that certainly casts doubt on aspects of the information in Archbishop Vigano's document:

    and the following video includes subtitles of what was said when Vigano met Pope Francis:

    Vigano's description of the above meeting: "He immediately assailed me with a tone of reproach, using these words: “The Bishops in the United States must not be ideologized! They must be shepherds!

    Here is a good article on the topic:

    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  8. David

    David Well-Known Member

    I'm copying an important article here from the secular Washington Post newspaper because I believe it captures very accurately what has been happening with the Vigano affair as well as the wider picture of attacks on Pope Francis within sections of the Catholic media.

    Former Vatican ambassador’s explosive letter reveals influence of conservative Catholic media network


    Way back when, you’d find Catholic newspapers distributed at the rear of your parish church, with articles that took a middle-of-the road approach to church issues and rarely made an aggressive challenge to the hierarchy.

    But news this week that Catholic journalists were involved in editing and distributing a Vatican diplomat’s explosive and largely unverified letter calling for the pope’s resignation reveals an influential and tightly knit conservative Catholic digital media network that’s been particularly active during the tenure of its nemesis, Pope Francis.

    Like much of the media in our hyper-polarized, digital era, Catholic news sites have become deeply split between left and right. And these days, the dividing line is almost always what Francis says or does on almost anything, from global warming and tax cuts to the death penalty and increased acceptance of LGBT Catholics and the unmarried.

    So when Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò wanted to make a first-in-history public attack by a member of the Vatican on a sitting pope, he turned, naturally, to conservative sites such as and the National Catholic Register in the United States, as well as prominent conservative journalists in Italy who in recent years launched opinionated blogs on which they can vent about Francis.

    Much like the way in which Breitbart News and Drudge Report have served as media conduits for the brand of conservative American populism led by President Trump, conservative Catholic media outlets have become power players by conveying the anti-Francis point of view, this time becoming part of the story, as well.

    “My wife points out: ‘Should you publish it, they will think that, by this very fact, you’re on his side. Are you fine with that?’ Yes I am,” Italian journalist Aldo Maria Valli wrote on his blog Tuesday about his decision to meet Viganò and advise him on whether to publish his accusation that Francis and some of his allies knew about sexual misconduct by a cardinal, former D.C. archbishop Theodore McCarrick. Valli says he shares Viganò’s view that the people at the top of the church “do not work to bring Jesus’ Gospel to the men and women of our time, but to bring chaos and to give into the world’s logic.”

    Valli was only one star in the constellation of conservative Catholic media who reportedly were part of the process of getting out the 11-page letter. The Associated Press reported that conservative Italian journalist Marco Tosatti sat at a wooden table in his living room for three hours Aug. 22 as he and Viganò rewrote and edited the letter together, even collaborating on the timing — for impact.

    “I think that if you want to say something, now is the moment because everything is going upside-down in the United States. He said ‘OK.,’ ” Tosatti said he told Viganò.

    Viganò ultimately distributed his letter through a handful of conservative Catholic sites, including the Register, which is owned by the Alabama-based conglomerate EWTN, the Eternal Word Television Network. EWTN runs 11 round-the-clock networks that reach 270 million homes in 145 countries, according to its website. EWTN was launched in the early 1980s by nun-magnate Mother Angelica, who was a media visionary committed to promoting traditional social values.

    This week, the New York Times reported that, two weeks ago, Viganò shared his plan with Timothy Busch, a Koch Brothers-like figure in conservative Catholic circles who sits on the board of EWTN. Busch said leaders of the Register had personally assured him that Pope Benedict, a favorite of conservatives, had confirmed Viganò’s account.

    Benedict’s secretary Msgr Georg Gaenswein told Italian media outlet ANSA on Thursday that the ex-pope has not confirmed the content of Vigano’s letter, calling a report Benedict had backed Viganò “fake news, a lie.” On Tuesday a German outlet published similar comments from Ganswein.

    The Washington Post’s phone calls to Tosatti were not returned, but he tweeted that his role was being overstated and that he’d merely edited the letter. A phone message left with Busch’s office was not returned.

    Valli told The Post on Wednesday that he met three times with Viganò after they had initially connected at a conference for conservatives. The first time, in March, Viganò detailed a long list of internal Vatican problems. The third and final time, Aug. 21, Viganò, wearing a baseball hat and sunglasses, handed Valli a memory card with a draft, the journalist said. The two outlined a plan to distribute the letter during Francis’s trip to Ireland, when the pope would be surrounded by reporters.

    Viganò was motivated by much more than the McCarrick case, Valli said.

    “McCarrick was more like the trigger. Viganò had a wider vision,” he said. “What he really cared about [is that] since the end of John Paul II’s pontificate, the problem of homosexuality within the church was widely known. But it was covered up.”

    Yet while Catholics of all political persuasions suspect there is a coverup among their leadership on the topic of abuse — and of McCarrick’s case specifically — even many conservatives say they want Viganò’s letter independently confirmed in part due to its connections with right-leaning Catholic media. U.S. Catholics’ general faith in their media, like Americans overall, seems to have decreased in recent decades, some longtime journalists in that field say, as the Web has spawned endless opinionated blogs that run on anonymous tips, which then influence the bigger Catholic news sites.

    John Thavis, who covered the Vatican in Rome for decades and was bureau chief of the Catholic News Service before retiring recently, said the digital boom after 2000 greatly increased the number of Catholic media voices.

    “A lot of the smaller Catholic organizations take a conservative line, perhaps reflecting the church politics of their financial backers,” he said. Vatican journalists launched their own blogs, on which they could be more opinionated about papal politics — and usually on the conservative side, Thavis said.

    In the early 2000s, the center-right Catholic News Agency was founded in Denver. CNA is owned now by EWTN, as is the Register, whose website Wednesday was populated with pieces about Viganò, homosexuality and transgender issues.

    A top priority of Valli, Tosatti and other Italian conservative journalists, Thavis said, are “their warnings about homosexuality.” The powerful Italian conservatives in the media, he said, are focused on preserving church practices in particular, especially after the liberalizing changes of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, when the empowered left began pushing for more changes, such as allowing women to become priests. Conservatives have been particularly focused on sex and family as topics and were enraged by Francis’s encouragement of dialogue and debate about whether divorced Catholics who have remarried outside the church should receive Communion.

    After decades of rule by the traditional John Paul II, Thavis said, the Vatican press corps was invested in John Paul’s view of the church. He recalls a loud cheer in the press room when the cardinals in 2005 selected the like-minded Benedict as his successor. He also recalls the loud complaints in 2013 when the newly elected Francis said in his first meeting with journalists that he wouldn’t offer the traditional blessing his predecessors had because there were non-Christians in the corps and he wanted to show respect.

    “It was revelatory for me to see how conservative some of the media were to certain church teachings and practices. I don’t want to say they were more Catholic than the pope,” Thavis said, but to the conservative reporters, Francis’s efforts to reduce the pomp and royalty of the office were not only nontraditional but also a gimmick.

    The priorities of the rising new network of conservative Catholic media aren’t limited to issues around sex and ritual. Busch not only sits on the board of EWTN and many other Catholic organizations but is also the namesake for the business school at Catholic University, a graduate school known for working to reconcile free markets and capitalism and Catholic teaching. Francis, on the other hand, is more in the socialist model of Catholicism.

  9. David

    David Well-Known Member


    In 2011, Busch co-founded the Napa Institute, a swanky TED-Talk-like conference in Napa, Calif., for conservative Catholics, to prepare the faith “for the Next America,” its site says. The term is adopted from a book by conservative Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput that warns about a secularized America hostile to traditional religion.

    When he was in the United States, a prominent lay conservative leader said, Viganò traveled in conservative media circles, which sometimes spanned the ocean, such as when Tosatti would write for the influential U.S. conservative journal First Things. The U.S. and Italian conservative Catholic media are “all part of one world,” said the leader, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the Viganò case is so divisive and this person didn’t want to be seen as adding to that.

    The National Catholic Register, Catholic News Agency and EWTN represent the center core of conservative Catholic media, with viewed as leaning more toward advocacy than journalism and even more so. ChurchMilitant is run by Michael Voris, a journalist who “carries a message of the need for a stalwart defense … of Catholic truth,” the site says. LifeSite was launched in the 1970s by a Canadian organization devoted to fighting “abortion, euthanasia, cloning, homosexuality” and other issues, its site says.

    Conservative Catholic outlets have stirred the pot before Viganò. A year ago, Catholic University’s Theological College seminary canceled an appearance by the liberal Jesuit James Martin, a prominent advocate for the acceptance of LGBT people, citing “increasing negative feedback from various social media sites.” The next day, the university issued a counter-statement, saying the cancellation was a decision of the seminary only — not the full university — and reflects “the same pressure being applied by the left for universities to withdraw speaker invitations,” wrote President John Garvey.

    Even as some conservative Catholics are inspired by what they hope is the letter’s potential to reduce Francis’s sway, they are skeptical of the way in which it was shared.

    “This whole episode seems like total Fake News,” said the conservative lay leader. The allegations of sexual abuse coverup “have to be investigated, wherever they lead. But the way this came out, it really struck me: ‘They’re really out to get Francis.’ ”

    But people who are part of the right-leaning news sphere don’t see it that way, any more than Catholic journalists on the left see their work holding up the pope’s efforts at reform as a vendetta against another part of the church. However, one commentator in the conservative Catholic media sphere, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity, said there’s no question the journalists who published Viganò’s full letter without reporting on it had a mission.

    “I think they would all look at it like: They’re not trying to be objective,” the person said. “They are trying to evangelize; they’re trying to spread the good news, spread the message as they understand it. They are activists.”

  10. Richard Smith

    Richard Smith Member

    Our Lady has just told us - Talk less, pray more.
  11. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Yes Richard, you quote from Our Lady's words to Medjugorje visionary, Marija, just a week ago:

    "Dear children! This is a time of grace. Little children, pray more, speak less and permit God to lead you on the way of conversion. I am with you and love you with my motherly love. Thank you for having responded to my call."​

    Nevertheless, I hope you don't feel that we have no need to defend Pope Francis following on the latest and biggest attack on his pontificate so far. Increasing numbers of people are being influenced by an agenda being followed by sections of the Catholic media and it is important that accurate information is made available.

    Incidentally, there is a new article by Mark Mallett under the title, 'Pray more… speak less' at:

  12. andree

    andree Well-Known Member

    Thanks for these videos & links David & Radhe. That Washington Post article is quite telling....left, right, conservative, liberal... I mean, phew! You need a political science degree to figure out what is going on between groups. As Mark Mallett says in his latest post, "The ugly political underbelly of the Church is being exposed as “collegiality” begins to disintegrate."

    I have to admit that I still haven't read the 11-page letter by the Nuncio and at this point I don't have any plans to do it either. What got me launched on my initial post above was reading much agitation about this on another forum, and then seeing that Robert Moynihan, whose writing I believe has been behind the pope, was also expressing "gravity" about it too.

    I think that things are serious but am back on track following Our Lady's advice about silence (at least in refraining from judging anyone) and prayer. That message to Marija was so short and to the point, it is obviously relevant to current events.

    Yes, the internet poses problems, but I still don't get it. Even if dozens of letters were written, we laymen still would not have all the "evidence" needed to judge anyone, let alone the Holy Father.

    I fear that all of this is about dividing wheat from chaff and I find it horrible to see fervent Christians getting tripped up by pride in thinking they can judge the clergy in its highest ranks.

    Those of us who can should console Jesus and Mary tomorrow on the First Saturday.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  13. Richard Smith

    Richard Smith Member

    Was it a day before the letter that our Lady spoke such words ?
    I find that very telling for us.
    Yes we must defend the Pope and all that God has called with prayer !
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  14. David

    David Well-Known Member

    I want to post just two more links under this topic. The first is a follow up article from the National Catholic Reporter website which, for me, has posted the most reliable analysis of these events:

    The second is a powerful homily by Fr Robert Altier given last month in a parish in North America. It presents the current crisis in the Church in very striking terms:
  15. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Some viewers of the forum may be familiar with the notable Christian witness, Marino Restrepo. I posted a video of his witnessings some 7 years ago. Here it is:

    Some background on him is at

    What has he to do with the Vigano affair? Well, he has just posted a very hard hitting defence of Pope Francis which is worthy of being shown here. It is perhaps more hard hitting than I am totally comfortable with but he clearly feels very strongly about the attacks on the Pope:

  16. andree

    andree Well-Known Member

    Yes, he uses very strong words indeed. And here are a few from the Messages (Sept 20, 1989), equally strong :

    I call each one of My shepherds by their name, but very few hear My Voice ... I stifle, I suffocate to see them filled with dead words; hear Me, I have, daughter, called you to serve the cause of right, I have taken you by the hand and formed you to witness, I have shown you the Truth and I have unveiled your eyes to see whom I had chosen to sit in Peter's Chair, and to whom I once said: "you are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church; and the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it; I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven;" 4

    I had given this man this Authority, and today you are trying to overthrow him and steal his shepherd's staff so that you rule with the sceptre of Falsehood and Vice; Peter? Peter-of-My-Lambs, My beloved shepherd, I know how your heart lacerates and bleeds in rivers for this ungrateful and unfaithful generation; I know how they have turned your eyes into a spring of tears; I know how many of your brothers have turned their backs to you; these are, My beloved, those shepherds who know nothing, feel nothing, they all go their own way, each after his own interest, serving Folly instead of Wisdom, Lust instead of Poverty, Disobedience instead of Obedience;

    I gaze from My Cross on all who inhabit the world, and I am telling you who people many nations, that soon the Hour is with you, the time is almost up, and the days will not last long before you pass your nights weeping, you unfaithful shepherds, shepherds who sin against Me by faithlessness, you who cry Peace! when there is no Peace; return to Peter, all you who have strayed away in a different direction; serve Me, why serve Unholiness? be Mine, not the Rebel's, why are you so willing to serve the Rebel? even foreigners, even these have listened to My Voice and have understood My Words; My Principles are Holy and I tell you most solemnly that Holy They shall remain forever and ever;

    daughter, read My Word;

    (The Lord indicated to me where. Again in Mt. 5:18-19.)

    read and write: "I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved; therefore the man who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven; but the man who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of heaven;"

    child, rest now; delight My Soul with your child-like faith; come, rest in Me; I, the Lord, bless you, love Me;

    To me, Pope Benedict is our model in all of this. He speaks little, prays much and remains faithful to Peter whom he promised that he would serve through prayer.

    Today is the first Friday, for those who can go to mass & say a rosary, they should be offered in reparation to the offenses towards the Sacred Heart.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2018
  17. Stephen

    Stephen Member

    I agree with David regards Lifesitenews it is an absolute disgraceful site that is notoriously Anti-Pope Francis from the beginning.

    Viganos letter is evidence of a power struggle in the Church between two groups who assume they're doing great holy things when in fact they're doing what is unholy. These are the modernists (those who spread outright heresy) and those who call themselves traditionalists when in fact they're fundamentalists. But the Church is more modern than the modernist and more traditional than the traditionalist. It's actually easier for well meaning Catholics looking for a bit of the mystical and further spiritual direction to fall into the hands of the fundamentalist camp and ...I dare say more difficult to be removed from than the modernist one as their hearts seem to be more hardened and impenetrable (in my experience of conversing with them).

    The advantage of the Popes silence is that it has given him (and those of us with some sort of common sense) the advantage to see who is enemy is. The enemy cannot contain himself from premature judgment and so those who do so may not all be bad Catholics in essence but certainly ones whose moral or spiritual directional compass of discernment isn't quite up to scratch. EWTN for example really took me by surprise (or did they. . . I've never really like this TV channel regardless of the good intentions of it's founder). All of the enemies who want to oust Pope Francis are coming out of the woodwork not just on the traddie side but also on the modernist side. Cupich interview was in my opinion a disaster and so himself and Cardinal Wuerl are suspect in my opinion. Most of the criticism of Pope Francis and calls for his resignation (typical Americans treating the Vatican as they would the white house and putting patriotism and politics above Catholicism) are coming from America. I really have a dislike for American Catholicism and its anti-mystical protestant cultural qualities.

    What we are witnessing is a tug of war where at either end of the rope is a desire for power. During the reign of BXVI it was the modernists trying to get him out of the Chair of Peter and now during Pope Francis reign the traditionalists are the ones trying to oust him from the Chair.

    Should Viganos claims be investigated? I don't know, he's broken a long standing vow to the Pope and it's such a betrayal and I feel possibly obvious strategic attack on the Papal Throne regardless if Pope Francis had made some error of judgment as he did with the Chilean Bishops. It is important for us to keep our distance from this issue because our frustration is unhelpful but our continued prayers for Pope Francis and his persecutors is very beneficial indeed.

    Whatever process is going on we must admit that the Church is being cleansed and like when I clean my own house out sometimes it gets even more messy and ugly looking before the dust settles and everything gets removed to the bin, so too the Church.

    In a war there's whats known as collateral damage and sadly during this tug of war for power we must pray for the Catholics caught up in this whose faith has been shaken.

    I recently did a photographic story on Fatima priest Fr.Michael Maher for Aleteia English (Catholic publication) who have not published it yet but in the course of our journey towards the ''priests beach'' we conversed about Fatima. I told him that I know I shouldn't interpret prophecy because nobody really knows what it all means but I told him my own thoughts on the secret of Fatima regarding the pope being killed by some with arrows and some with guns etc etc.

    I said I believed that the men with guns were the modernists and those with the more ''traditional'' weapon of the bow and arrow were the traditionalists. The mountain of people whose blood spilled was the martyred Catholics (living martyrs ) who defend the Pope and create a pathway for him to the Cross. Now whether or not the Prophecy is talking about Pope Francis or that the Pope in the secret symbolizes the actual Papacy I don't know.

    I said it to Fr.John Abberton and his only response was that is was '' very perceptive''. But don't take my word for it I may be totally wrong however with all that was going on in recent years I just couldn't look at that secret any other way.

    There is a war on and during this war we need to take shelter and allow the Lord to do his cleansing.

    The following is something I read the other night and I'm not inferring it's anything to do with the secret I spoke of just now or anything at all I just thought it was good advice as all scripture can be useful for instruction.

    Isaiah 26:20-21: Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
    hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.

    See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
    The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
    the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
  18. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  19. karnala

    karnala Well-Known Member

    ..."if the churches are able to go beyond the negative obstacles that hinder them to unite, obstacles that according to Scriptures are against the fulfilment of the unity of faith, love and worship among them, I will be faithful to My promise of releasing a time of peace in the entire world; this peace will draw every being into My Mystical Body,..." Dec 10, 2001

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